jedno su panduri a ovo drugo jbg, to sto oni nekog tako tretiraju ne znaci da im ti tako i vratis, uvijek budi gospodin, jer inace tako sve ide u krug samo zbog inata ili principa, dajes im samo razlog da ti opet vrate. znam da se ovdje voli pozivati na propise i ne znam sta vec, ali meni je to na neki nacin "bezobrazno" da dodje 2k tovara i ti samo pustis 400 na tribinu. ako je kapacitet takav, uguras koliko mozes, jer kapacitet se svakako broji samo po sjedalu, ostatak na druge tribine pored gostujuceg sektora, odvojeno od domacih navijaca. znam, fantazija ili sanjanje, ali eto..

onda se nemamo sta ljutiti ako oni nama tako na poljudu uzvrate. koji vam je kurac, gostujuci navijaci, bilo koji da su, zasluzuju normalni tj. zapravo gospodski tretman od strane domacina. nismo panduri jbt..

austrijske navijacke grupe su izdale zajednicko priopcenje oko cijele situacije, uglavnom interesantno i u tipicnom ultra' maniru. nije mi se dalo sam prevesti tekst, pa je tekst preveden sa deepl translator na engleski, nisam nista sam popravljao. "ghost games"=utakmice bez publike


A joint statement of the Austrian fan scenes
Unfortunately, we are currently unable to live out our love of sport and our clubs in the stadium. None of us like that, but we have to go through it together for a while. We are fully aware of the current exceptional situation - both socially and from a football perspective. However, we are not so sure about this among the decision-makers in Austrian football. One thing is beyond question: the economic situation of many clubs is tense; the majority of professional clubs are reported to be insolvent from September at the latest. In addition, UEFA is exerting great pressure on the national leagues, and the TV partners also have a strong self-interest in continuing to broadcast effective advertising. And many football fans who normally attend their club's home games currently prefer to choose the option of watching ghost matches on TV rather than not watching any matches of their favourite team at all.

These circumstances mean that the holding of ghost games is being considered by decision-makers as almost a matter of course and without discussion. According to this, football is to be played for an indefinite period of time (in the worst case far beyond the summer) only under exclusion of the public. This option is argued by the officials with fairness and the idea of competition. The conclusion of the Bundesliga and thus the awarding of the European cup places should therefore be achieved by sporting means. However, this fairness does not seem to apply to clubs below the Bundesliga, where promotion and relegation are existentially important - a very transparent excuse. The truth is that we are talking about contracts that contain money - a lot of money.

Through the "Covid-19" back door, a paradigm shift is currently continuing that began in England in the 1990s: Football no longer takes place for the fans in the stadium, but for television. As a billion-dollar money machine and playground for some empires, which can only continue to exist if it is kept running. "No stopping at any cost" seems to be the general formula these days. The grandstand visitor, the fan, is thus only a finery for the TV broadcasts. The emotions should sell the product better at most, but by no means disturb the transmission and the show. Decisions made by video referees, for example, only have to be comprehensible to the audience in front of the TV - no consideration is given to the emotions in the stadium. Even the artificial creation of stadium atmosphere through fan emotions from the tape (keyword "fan app") mercilessly demonstrates this development.

Another argument in favour of continuing the league with ghost games is the great interest shown by the public, as it is precisely now that it is necessary for "an important piece of normality to return for the people". The only stupid thing is that in this context, at least in Austria, the cat literally bites its tail. Blinded by the money, the TV rights of the league were, as is well known, shifted to Pay-TV. Again nothing with mass phenomenon and social responsibility. The subscription figures of the rights holder will, however, at least there, make the cash register ring. We congratulate.

In the last decades, professional football has entered into an unholy alliance of windy investors, TV marketing and dubious player advisors. Even corruption at the highest association level has become the norm. In Qatar, people are constantly dying for a World Cup that not a single football fan wants to have there. From a global moral point of view, there is hardly any leeway left for the football business.

But also on a national level, the current approach is a fatal signal that is being sent to society. Many areas of public life are still severely restricted, while a conspicuous amount of energy is being invested in training and ghost games of the Bundesliga clubs. Even if it is currently being said on every corner that all this has no effect on other areas of life at all (keyword PCR tests), the fact remains that all other team and ball sports have stopped their championship operations and cancelled their competitions.

With this special status, which cannot be denied, professional football is increasingly saying goodbye to its base. Yet football is more than ever a worldwide popular mass phenomenon. It embodies precisely this symbiosis between players, coaches and fans, which can ignite an energy like no other sport. Even a number of players and coaches have now critically remarked that ghost games would develop "at most test game character" for them - in awareness of this very nature of football. We can only underline this. Nevertheless, the round leather should continue to roll under sometimes crazy conditions. Players should not enter the stadium together, but should "fight" against each other on the field or wear masks during the game. These are only two examples of absurd ideas that are currently being discussed.

Another important aspect also comes into play in this discussion: football must be affordable for all social classes. The fan scenes of the individual football clubs have been vehemently advocating moderate ticket prices for years. And this is especially true at the present time, when hundreds of thousands are suffering from short-time work and unemployment. Due to the current situation we have to temporarily adjust our demand: The league, the clubs and all decision-makers must ensure that, during this exceptional situation, every fan can watch all matches without an additional subscription contract with a TV station. For current season ticket holders, this service must be free of charge in any case! The handling should be taken over by those who benefit from the fact that football has been hidden behind the payment barrier, namely the league, the TV stations and the clubs.

The Bundesliga and the ÖFB must now work together with the government on concepts to enable football to be played in front of stadium spectators as soon as possible in accordance with health and legal requirements. Anything else is just a helpless attempt to keep a previously ill system artificially alive so that business with football can continue for a few. Especially for teams that are not currently playing professionally, ghost games are not even temporarily a sensible alternative. In the third, fourth or fifth league, matches without fans make no economic sense either.

And as far as ideas of cardboard figures, fan apps or other pipe bursting in ghost games are concerned, we have only one answer: If you want ghost games, you should be presented with them as naked truth. Anything else would not be authentic and must therefore be strictly rejected!

It is high time to think about the general development of football. Right now is the right time to take appropriate measures to make yourself less dependent on sponsors and TV stations. Perhaps this difficult situation, of all things, is the chance to return to a healthier path. Football must become more independent again and say goodbye to this obviously broken business model. It is time to focus on those who are the real backbone of football - the fans. Our support is assured to the people involved in this project.

Altacher Jungs – Block West – Fanszene Austria Klagenfurt – Fanszene Ried – Fanszene Vorwärts Steyr – Freund*innen der Friedhofstribüne – Gate 2 Admira – Kollektiv 1909 – Landstrassler – Nordtribüne Lustenau – Stahlstadt Kollektiv – Tivoli Nord – Union ‘99 Ultrà Salzburg – Vienna Supporters – Wolfbrigade 04 St. Pölten

stadion young boysa je dosadna klasika, dvije etaze, tribine bezpotrebno nekoliko metara udaljene od travnjaka itd. a opcenito kad se gradi stadion ne kopira se samo jedan drugi 1:1..

madjari ce nas sve zajebati. kad zavrse sve te stadione pa svaki madjarski klub ima pravu infrastrukturu i onda novac usmjere u sportski dio klubova... a najvise me odusevljava arhitektura i ta umjerenost sto se tice kapaciteta.

gdje sam to rekao? opisao sam samo taj stereotip. a ako ides u crkvu samo zato da ides ili eto, mora se, kao neka rutina, a zivot zivis kao jedan mamic, onda je to lose ili bolje receno bezveze, glumi velikog katolika a cijeli svoj zivot grijesi.

to je njemu vjerojatno rutina, ono svaku nedjelju kao pravi 'rvat katolik na misu i poslje u svakoj recenici psovati boga.

spodobu koja ne pripada ovoj vjeri — Navijač Dinama

nije da ne pripada, nego u potpunosti ispunjava stereotip - pogotvo svoje okolice tj. regije.

da je clanski model lijevicarska metoda je teska budalastina. koliko desnicarskih navijackih grupa se samo bori za odrzavanje clanskog modela u svom klubu ili se bore da im klub postane takav.. klubovi koji su osnovani krajem 19. stoljeca kao udruge i od tada su sve do sada vodjeni clanskim modelom nisu to sigurno radili iskljucivo iz nekog politickog-lijevog razloga tj. uvjerenja, jer postoji i desnicarska radnicka klasa i politicke stranke koje predstavljaju desnu radnicku klasu, radnicku klasu spominjem zato sto su klubovi koji su ih predstavljali uglavnom bili poznati po udruzi, clanskom modelu i toj "zajednici". volio bi znati sta bi za njega bila ta neka "univerzalna" desnicarska metoda..

ne razumije da desno orijentirana grupa vodi takvu borbu s lijevičarskim metodama. — Crusades1986

nisam gledao pa pitam, sto su to tocno lijevicarske metode? sve ti jebem, "samo kod nas" se prica o takvim stvarima tj. baca se takva stvar u jedan kos s nekom kvazi politickom pozadinom.

i history time ti preporucujem, ali to je vise u stilu dokumentarca, barem po duzini videa, ali uglavnom radi jako zanimljive teme, bolje nego ijedan tv dokumentarac.

da, historia civilis dosta prica o nekim manjim nepoznatim detaljima, predobra stvar. mene je ovaj m. laser history odusevio s videom o povijesti juznih slavena, nikad nisam vidio nesto toliko dobro i tocno istrazivano na internetu, koristi samo 100% dokazane izvore gdje i jedna i druga strana prihvaca izvor, nikakve teorije i jednostrane price. jedino se epic history tv moze bas usporediti s historia civilis sto se tice te kvalitete koju spominjes.

Naravno, poznavanje svih navedenih ideologija se najbolje stekne tako da čitaš klasične predstavnike tih idelogija ili pravaca mišljenja, ali ovakvi udžbenički tipovi su također korisni za one kojima to nije struka, a žele znati nešto. — Neki tip sa Zapada

bas sam se bojao da ce knjiga biti neko suho nabrajanje ali hvala bogu nije. ima popis svih najvaznih predstavnika ideologija nakon svakog poglavlja i jos par preporuka za citanje, normalno uz "temeljne" knjige tipa two treatises(john locke) etc. kad sam npr. poceo citati nisam ni znao svu tu povijest i tezinu rijeci "ideologija" i kako su sve navedene ideologije tumacile tu rijec i sta ona zapravo danas znaci. uglavnom jako jako temeljita knjiga.

Ima i u HR izdanju, mada su autori Nijemci. — Neki tip sa Zapada

ako su autori nijemci onda jos bolje :lol: kad je originalan jezik knjige hrvatski, njemacki ili engleski uvijek citam na originalnom jeziku, ako je bilo koji drugi citam na engleskom jer ENG izdanje uvijek postoji tj. prvo se prevodi na engleski s originalnog jezika pa tako "vjerujem" engleskom izdanju najvise.

Nije riječ o nekom općem, snobovskom prijeziru prema "toj novotariji". — Neki tip sa Zapada

dobro, ja sam kroz citanje nekako osjetio neku "negativnu atmosferu" prema "tim novotarijama" pa sam imao potrebu da napisem nesto. meni youtube uglavnom sluzi isto kao i knjiga, da naucim nesto, i kao kod knjige pogledam vise videa istih tema da si stvorim sliku.

"taj" youtube ima i jako dobrih stvari. procitati neku sci-fi knjigu nije nista drugacije od gledanje serije, filma ili youtube videa(u smislu da nisi nista pametniji poslje citanja, nego si se "samo zabavio"). ima na yt i zamjena za "realne"(povijest, politika etc.) knjige. nekoliko preporuka:

Epic History TV, World War Two, The Great War, TimeGhost History, HistoryMarche, Kings and Generals, Invicta, Epimetheus, Feature History, M. Laser History, Historia Civilis, Voices of the Past, History Time

normalno, knjiga je knjiga, tesko nesto drugo moze ici toliko u detalje kao dobra knijga, ali nije nemoguce, niti je to sto je na internetu tj. youtubeu odmah nesto "negativno".

sto se tice knjiga, trenutno citam od Andrew Heywooda "Political Ideologies: An Introduction"(sesto izdanje). odlican uvod u politicke ideologije. knjiga raspravlja o liberalizmu, konzervativizmu, socijalizmu (ukljucujuci marksizam), nacionalizmu, fasizmu, anarhizmu, feminizmu, ekologizmu i religijskom fundamentalizmu, s par odlomaka o globalizmu i post-modernizmu.

postoji popis "daljnjeg citanja" koji je dostupan na kraju svakog poglavlja, jer ocito je ovo samo uvod. ali ipak je vrlo temeljito i gusto.

iznimno preporucljivo onima koji su zainteresirani za razumijevanje osnova navedenih ideologija.